Kelly O’Sullivan and partner Alex Thompson have worked together before Ghostlight their magnificent meditation on grief, empathy, and the power of the theatre. Kelly wrote and starred in 2019’s Saint Frances about a woman in her thirties who takes up a nannying position after she has chosen to terminate a pregnancy. Alex was the director. Kelly once again is on script duties for Ghostlight but is now sharing directing duties with Alex.
Nadine Whitney speaks to them about crafting their beautiful film.
Ghostlight is in Australian cinemas now through Vendetta Films
Thank you for the transcendent piece of cinema that is Ghostlight. I rewatched it last night and was pre-emptively sobbing. I also rewatched Saint Frances. Kelly, you wrote Saint Frances based around your personal experiences. What inspired you to write Ghostlight?
Kelly O’Sullivan: The way Ghostlight does come from my experience is I’m a big theatre nerd. I started doing plays when I was six-years-old in Little Rock Arkansas. I did a production of Little Women at the Children’s Theatre and ever since then I was completely hooked. I especially have the softest spot in my heart for community theatre and for actors who most likely will never be famous but do it just for the love of it. So, I knew that I wanted to write from that place which is very near and dear to me, and then imaging a lot of Dan Mueller’s (Keith Kupferer) life.
I don’t have the experience of having a child die by suicide, but I do have experience with loss, as I think almost all of us do, and a desire to connect and have community and to have catharsis and I imagined from there.
The emotions that Dan gets to experience on stage as another person; that’s something you’re consistently putting into the script, is that you get to experience another point of view. Dan starts as Lord Capulet – the grieving parent and ends as Romeo.
Dan is deeply emotional he just has no way of expressing it. There’s a tiny moment where he he’s sitting in the rehearsal space and he notices that Moira is cold, and he gives her his jacket. I noticed how many times Dan’s jacket turns up on other people, like he just has these gorgeous little ways of showing he cares about people, but he can’t find words.
KO’S: Right? Yeah, that’s such a cool detail to notice. I think he’s been socialised not to have access to those feelings, and not to put language to them – which I think it’s something that I’m very curious about with men of a certain generation. Just what would it be like if they were encouraged to feel all of their feelings, including sadness and joy and playfulness? It was really beautiful to get to see Dan and Keith who plays Dan finally get to have that release at the end.
What it was like working with a family playing a family, because Keith, Katherine Mallen Kupferer, and Tara Mallen are a family in real life.
KO’S: It was very rewarding. They come with a lot of lived, shared experiences, and they speak the same language in the way that a family does, and so they are always reassuring each other and challenging each other and coaching each other. They really do remind you of like the quintessential theatre family. You know, they love each other, and they’re each other’s biggest fans, and so to get to work together every day, I think, reinforced what they already knew about one another. Which was that, you know, my dad is very talented, my mom is very talented, my daughter is very talented. But it was, it was moving to see on a weekly and a daily basis, the moments where they surprised each other. And I just think we got to, we got to start so much deeper than most people get to start, because we were beginning with these roots.
Most of the time. I think you have to sort of build those in and remind actors like, oh, just, you know, remember that, you know, this is the 500th time you’ve had this conversation because, you know, she’s your mother. You didn’t have to do that with them. And so there was this emotional shorthand that was just very rich and meant that we didn’t have to work very hard as directors. We really got to be sort of stewards to their dynamic. It was really, really fun.
It’s especially there with Keith and Katherine; the natural interplay, in the car rides, for example, when they’re with each other. It is so very much dad and daughter, especially when she’s kind of testing him and pushing him. I think Daisy (played by Katherine) is an extraordinary character. She’s so full of hurt and anger, but she’s also hilarious and strong. That first scene where we meet her, where she’s explaining that it is fair enough to shove the teacher because the teacher says “irregardless” – is such a brilliant introduction to the energy she will bring to the film.
KO’S: Oh my gosh we got so lucky with Katherine. She makes any of that dialog sing and she brings so much to Daisy. She’s this perfect example of somebody who embraces her rage, which I think is something that’s so exciting for me to see as an actor and an actress especially. And then when we do get glimpses of the vulnerability underneath it, it’s just it breaks your heart. She’s so good.
All the performances are excellent. Dolly De Leon as Rita. All the ensemble is excellent. Tommy Rivera-Vega as Lucian is a hoot. When Dan gets the role of Romeo, he’s sitting behind him hissing ‘Lady McB and Iago.’ Every character is fleshed out in some respect.
The way you write those characters helps to balance the comedy with the tragedy which is a difficult tightrope and you do it with such skill and tenderness. Which leads me to my next question. Kelly, what was it like stepping behind the camera properly this time as a director?
KO’S: It was so fun. I just remember in Saint Frances I was a ball of nerves all the time because I didn’t know if the movie would be good. It felt like a lot of pressure to be in every scene. I constantly was thinking, “We cast the wrong person!” (Kelly stars in the film).
Because I wasn’t seeing how it was being shot, I just kept wanting to see it, you know, but I but you can’t do both at once. And then watching the edit was a nightmare because you’re just watching it your own face the whole time. It was a total joy to get to move behind the camera and learn from Alex, who is such an incredible director and is so skilled in areas in which I’m still a novice. To get to direct actors and to talk to actors! My absolute favourite thing is to work with actors, and especially actors of this calibre. It felt like a relief and a challenge in the best ways. I’m very grateful that Alex was my partner in that.
Alex, what was it like working with Kelly as a co-director?
Alex Thompson: It’s very nice. I think actors and directors are similar in that part of the job is you make meaning out of things, and sort of you root through the script and find all these associations, and you take it very seriously.
I think that’s what’s so fun about actors. And so, working with Kelly as a director is very similar. She knows the scripts very, very well. And so oftentimes, you know, when we’re workshopping things, or we’re talking through things, ideas will come up that I think wouldn’t otherwise if Kelly was just the writer or just the actor. We have the freedom together to say, let’s do it let’s make that happen then, and we don’t have to worry about hurting the writer’s feelings because they’re right there.
Can you tell me a little about working with Dolly De Leon?
KO’S: It was really a dream. She comes from theatre and so understood immediately what we were doing. A lot of our sets, our process very similar to community theatre. It’s very all hands-on deck. Everyone did their own makeup. There was not an extensive wardrobe department. Everyone brought their own clothes to set for the most part every day, just to keep everybody very grounded and very close to the story. And boy, she was so down for that. And then on top of it, she brought this warmth and also a bite that was really needed for a Rita. I couldn’t have, couldn’t have imagined anyone else better for the role.
She was the only non-Chicago actor and the way that she managed to sort of slip into the ensemble and really feel like both a leader and a collaborator in the space. She’s so funny.
I love watching Keith and Dolly in the same scenes, because she is pint sized and he is massive, and yet she has this commanding energy. Speaking of Shakespeare, “She is tiny, but she is fierce.” Dolly and Rita bring the ferocity and ability to tap into things that Dan is very inspired by. She was an absolute dream.
What would you like people to take away from the experience of seeing Ghostlight?
KO’S: For me, it’s all about empathy and connection. And I think that exactly what we were talking about before; that this film is intentionally a constant interplay of comedy and drama all at once in the way that hopefully feels very lifelike. At least, that’s the way I experience life is one second you’re laughing, and next you’re crying, and I think one leads to the other in a really cathartic way. So, I hope people leave feeling like they’ve experienced both joy and relief of some of our sorrows. That it is a film that I think helps you feel connected, and I think helps you empathise. Hopefully that’s what people take away.
